Author Topic: What the H*** are my Seeds Doing!!??  (Read 15232 times)

Jamis

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What the H*** are my Seeds Doing!!??
« on: July 07, 2009, 04:34:49 AM »
I just fired up Dyson after a few months hiatus, and I almost immediately came across a problem that had irked me in the past:

When my seeds are attacking, they don't seem focused.  They can not decide if they want to attack the seeds that are defending the asteroid, or the trees they need to destroy in order to capture the asteroid.   This, unfortunately, normally leads my small army of seedlings to their doom.  They get picked off one at a time because they are woefully attacking a tree they have no chance to take down while the defenders attack them with impunity.  Or, by some stroke of luck, they accidentally kill all the defenders but now lack the number of seeds required to plant a new tree.

I think that if I'm attacking an asteroid and there are defenders, the seedlings should take priority to destroy the defenders first.  Unless, my invading army size is overwhelming...  At which point, it doesn't really matter how many defenders there are...the army can "one-shot" any trees and kamikaze the core.

Also...seedlings should form up in to smaller swarms, or teams, to help take down their objectives.  What's this flying off by yourself nonsense?  :P

Rudolf

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Re: What the H*** are my Seeds Doing!!??
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2009, 04:30:38 PM »
I am working on AI at the moment, there is a fair amount of basic decisionmaking that we can improve on, rest assured we look at all posts like this and cry a bit take them on board.

:-D

Alex

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Re: What the H*** are my Seeds Doing!!??
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2009, 06:03:39 PM »
The seedlings all act individually, so they have to make certain priorities that are currently based purely on the enemy presence on the asteroid - some decide to attack trees and some decide to attack seedlings. I could add rules that make them all attack the same seedling if they decide to attack seedlings, or all attack the same tree. We are also looking at grouping seedlings together in some way. They should also take into account the balance of power on an asteroid and attack targets based on that too (the logic of the governing intelligence could do with a bunch more improvements too).

Thanks for the feedback!

FiltyIncognito

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Re: What the H*** are my Seeds Doing!!??
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2009, 10:27:17 AM »
Quote
They should also take into account the balance of power on an asteroid and attack targets based on that too

Perhaps you could let the user control the target? That way you don't have to program an AI to be super intelligent about it (otherwise there will always be complaints, right?). Maybe you could do this by adding a prompt when you move seedlings to a planet with enemy units on it (after having discovered it) to select to attack seedlings, seedling trees, bomber trees or to just let the default AI as it is now do its thing. The last option would be best for when you have large swarms that would be most effective by just going after whatever is closest. And then allow the user to re-attack the planet (select all or number of seedlings then allow clicking on the planet they are currently on) so that the user can change the seedlings tactics.

Since doing this would make gameplay a little more complex, perhaps you could add an option to enable the tactics function and have it set off by default. This way the game will appear just as simple so as to be attractive to the beginners and more casual players, and allow for more advanced play to more established players.


Sorry for just jumping in. I just started playing this game and absolutely love it, but like others have said, it has a huge potential for growth as well without making it overly complex and daunting to new players and with enough room for more advanced strategies and if possible I'd like to contribute.

(Oh and last thing, perhaps in the 'How To' section you can add that both tree's require 15 seedlings to make, that trees grow to produce more seedlings/bomblings, and that a certain number of seedlings are needed to take over a hostile planet.)

Jamis

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Re: What the H*** are my Seeds Doing!!??
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2009, 03:34:22 AM »
Quote
They should also take into account the balance of power on an asteroid and attack targets based on that too

Perhaps you could let the user control the target? That way you don't have to program an AI to be super intelligent about it (otherwise there will always be complaints, right?). Maybe you could do this by adding a prompt when you move seedlings to a planet with enemy units on it (after having discovered it) to select to attack seedlings, seedling trees, bomber trees or to just let the default AI as it is now do its thing. The last option would be best for when you have large swarms that would be most effective by just going after whatever is closest. And then allow the user to re-attack the planet (select all or number of seedlings then allow clicking on the planet they are currently on) so that the user can change the seedlings tactics.


The seems like a pretty good idea.  I can't think of a good way to implement it though...

Perhaps a little overlay on the screen where you can select one of three (four five?) options what your attack priority is:  Seeds, Production Trees, Defensive Trees, Neutral.  Perhaps you could just drag and drop them to put them in the order/priority of your choice...

Shrug.  I just want my seeds to attack enemy seeds.  :)

ShinseiTom

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Re: What the H*** are my Seeds Doing!!??
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2009, 03:56:02 AM »
Quote
They should also take into account the balance of power on an asteroid and attack targets based on that too

Perhaps you could let the user control the target? That way you don't have to program an AI to be super intelligent about it (otherwise there will always be complaints, right?). Maybe you could do this by adding a prompt when you move seedlings to a planet with enemy units on it (after having discovered it) to select to attack seedlings, seedling trees, bomber trees or to just let the default AI as it is now do its thing. The last option would be best for when you have large swarms that would be most effective by just going after whatever is closest. And then allow the user to re-attack the planet (select all or number of seedlings then allow clicking on the planet they are currently on) so that the user can change the seedlings tactics.

You could also make it where the place you drag the movement line to is what the seedlings attack.  Say, you drag the movement line over a certain tree on the asteroid you are attacking, and the seedlings attack that specific tree.  Dragging to the center of the asteroid invokes the default 'neutral' attack like what happens in the game now.  I don't know how you would implement only attacking seedlings... but I'm sure you could come up with something.

This way also gets rid of the need for adding any menus or pop-ups to the game.

Widget

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Re: What the H*** are my Seeds Doing!!??
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2009, 06:04:19 AM »
You could also make it where the place you drag the movement line to is what the seedlings attack.  Say, you drag the movement line over a certain tree on the asteroid you are attacking, and the seedlings attack that specific tree.  Dragging to the center of the asteroid invokes the default 'neutral' attack like what happens in the game now.  I don't know how you would implement only attacking seedlings... but I'm sure you could come up with something.

This way also gets rid of the need for adding any menus or pop-ups to the game.

I'm no programmer but the system you're suggesting, while being a neat and intuitive solution, sounds like a really major reworking of seedling movement  :-\

ShinseiTom

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Re: What the H*** are my Seeds Doing!!??
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2009, 02:08:00 AM »
You could also make it where the place you drag the movement line to is what the seedlings attack.  Say, you drag the movement line over a certain tree on the asteroid you are attacking, and the seedlings attack that specific tree.  Dragging to the center of the asteroid invokes the default 'neutral' attack like what happens in the game now.  I don't know how you would implement only attacking seedlings... but I'm sure you could come up with something.

This way also gets rid of the need for adding any menus or pop-ups to the game.

I'm no programmer but the system you're suggesting, while being a neat and intuitive solution, sounds like a really major reworking of seedling movement  :-\
Not necessarily.  I'm pretty sure I read that the seeds individually decided what to attack when enemy's are nearby.  Surely there would be a solution to overrule the ai's choice, or skip it altogether, and insert what you want it to do.  Like a "if selected something, attack only that something until dead; else decide yourself like normal."  Might even help later game when you have a couple thousand seeds trying to decide what to do and they take forever to move?  Though I doubt it would actually help in that situation  ;D.

As for the actual picking, some kind of "what's under the pointer" type of choosing, then the seedlings actually move to the planet like normal, just with the overwritten attack specification.

Of course, I don't know what their code actually looks like, so I don't know how easy or hard it would be to add that in.

Grnd

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Re: What the H*** are my Seeds Doing!!??
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2009, 06:39:19 AM »
May I add something to the whole strategy idea...?
I was thinking that you could possibly add in a sort of...multi class seed system? in a sense making "bomber" and "fighter" seeds. Granted they'll all spawn from the same general Dyson Trees but maybe you could have somethng to let the player take controll of the production rates of each kind of seed. Perhaps a slider either on the UI or in the middle of the asteroid itself so that THAT particualr asteroid produces 20% fighters and 80% bombers but another one near by produces 60% fighters and 40% bombers.

Only a suggestion, and if it isn't implamented in this than maybe you could use it in a later project...maybe....

EDIT: Also adding in a new Defence Tree spawn would be cool, i mean having sucide spores is cool and all, but them alone are not enough to eliminate a large swarm of attackers. having an "anti-swarm" defence would be cool, and giving it a relative inability to fight off small amounts of enemies where as your original sucide spores will be able to make quick work of small groups of enemies and huge swarms it can't handle. Also having a similar slider system to mannage the production on each asteroids so that some asteroids can defend well against swarms, others against small forces, and still more can handle both. again just a suggestion.

PS: I put this here to maybe help catogorize the seeds to make it understandible to the player why they chose what they attack so that the player can strategise accordingly.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 07:23:13 AM by Grnd »

Mr Frank

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Re: What the H*** are my Seeds Doing!!??
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2009, 03:19:01 AM »
I actually like the idea of mostly autonomous seedlings.  I am the lord of all seedlings, I tell them to go destroy some asteroid, and then they go and do that for me.  The AI right now favors the defenders in small attacks and attackers in large battles, and I think that's a good thing too.  If there is to be a change in seedling AI, I would most enjoy some sort of schooling behavior.  I've heard that the rules fish follow to create schools are surprisingly simple.

BC wins

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Re: What the H*** are my Seeds Doing!!??
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2009, 08:42:58 AM »

EDIT: Also adding in a new Defence Tree spawn would be cool, i mean having sucide spores is cool and all, but them alone are not enough to eliminate a large swarm of attackers.



i don't know which game you have been playing but those suicide things can really own huge armies cause they can hit more then one seedling in one blow :P
i once attacked this asteroid whit a lot of defence trees and it like killed 100 of my 300 seedlings or something because it is really good against huge amount of seedlings :D

ShinseiTom

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Re: What the H*** are my Seeds Doing!!??
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2009, 04:44:21 PM »

EDIT: Also adding in a new Defence Tree spawn would be cool, i mean having sucide spores is cool and all, but them alone are not enough to eliminate a large swarm of attackers.



i don't know which game you have been playing but those suicide things can really own huge armies cause they can hit more then one seedling in one blow :P
i once attacked this asteroid whit a lot of defence trees and it like killed 100 of my 300 seedlings or something because it is really good against huge amount of seedlings :D

I've hardly ever had that happen with the base settings and levels.  Only.... eh.... someone's..... Jamis's levels with the upgraded defense trees really show that kind of damage.

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Re: What the H*** are my Seeds Doing!!??
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2009, 09:16:57 AM »
It seems like Frank and I are in a minority in preferring the way things are now. While a lot of the suggestions are interesting I feel that the simplicity of Dyson is a defining characteristic and anything adding features to the gameplay would need to be weighed up very carefully; while a given change might follow the consensus in a few situations the cumulative effect of such ideas is to tarnish the core gameplay and atmosphere.

I think the best place to look for different gameplay within the engine are the custom levels. What people have managed to do is fascinating and most have a totally different feel to the main game.

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Re: What the H*** are my Seeds Doing!!??
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2009, 07:50:24 AM »
It seems like Frank and I are in a minority in preferring the way things are now. While a lot of the suggestions are interesting I feel that the simplicity of Dyson is a defining characteristic and anything adding features to the gameplay would need to be weighed up very carefully; while a given change might follow the consensus in a few situations the cumulative effect of such ideas is to tarnish the core gameplay and atmosphere.

I think the best place to look for different gameplay within the engine are the custom levels. What people have managed to do is fascinating and most have a totally different feel to the main game.

i agree :)
some small changes to make it easier to for example gather seedlings
and stuff like that
but for the rest the simplicity is great :D