Author Topic: Von Neumann machines, and oxygen  (Read 18232 times)

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axussriddare

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Re: Von Neumann machines, and oxygen
« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2009, 02:51:56 PM »
Now, I wish to revise my theory further (got some better ideas). Sadly I cannot stay with the game "lore" any longer, since I really can't find a realistic reason to why fifteen seedlings would be needed.
Because if the seedlings were composed, at their core, of nanobots (or micromachines), they could be reconfigured at planting time into a root generator, cannibalizing themselves as they go. And it would most likely take the mass of 15 seedlings to start the process.
But there you are again! In MY theory, the Dysons are organic! They are an alien species evolved in an unknown environment (an asteroid belt or a now-broken planet). Please stop hacking away at me with criticism that isn't even aimed correctly. This is getting rather tiresome.

wogan

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Re: Von Neumann machines, and oxygen
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2009, 06:41:12 PM »
I was just offering an explanation as to why 15 seedlings would be required to seed a tree, that's all. No need to start spitting fire.

totally

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Re: Von Neumann machines, and oxygen
« Reply #47 on: March 30, 2009, 04:10:10 AM »
Quote from: Wogan May
Quote from: totally
There is lots and lots of competition inside species which makes it stronger as a whole.

Based on what evidence? The human race has been competing with itself for the last 3'000 years - and look what its done to us, our moralities, beliefs, relationships, and even the planet itself. Gaza, Rwanda, WWII, anyone? Have we become a stronger race for it? I don't think so. And no, building bigger bombs doesn't make you stronger, it just makes you more liable to do something really stupid.

I'll give you an example about competition inside spicies: there is one attractive girl, and you and I go after her. To deny that this kind of competition doesn't make the spices stronger is kinda naive (and I'll get the girl ;) Those examples you mentioned are more of a tribe vs tribe, or system vs system. And, yes, bigger bombs make you stronger, there is no way around it.



Quote from: Wogan May
I know you're invoking natural selection here - the idea that the strong survive by getting rid of the weak. What evolutionists fail to realise is that even the "weak" species play fundamental roles. Earthworms, for instance, aren't particularly strong, and would lose in just about any fight - but without them, our soils wouldn't be nearly as fertile as what they are.

Just remember that the purpose of the theory of natural selection was to explain how the current species spread came to be. In Dyson, we already know exactly how the species is to behave, the environment it will act in, how it will need to respond to stimuli, and how it will reproduce and spread. Introducing further competiton at this point is insanity - all it will do is promote counter-productive individualism, which (as I'm sure you've learned when you need 400+ seedlings to take an asteroid) will severely hamper your efforts.


Hm, who said that evolution is about survival of the strongest? "The strong survive by getting rid of the weak"? No, the strong survive by controling the weak. Major difference. Wolves don't get rid of all the rabbits. They simply eat them. Why? Because they can. The wolf has more control over the rabbit, than a rabbit has over wolf.



Quote from: Wogan May
edit: Also don't listen to Wogan who thinks that he knows components of asteroids  ;) The word "asteroid" here is used to describe the round things on which trees live, they could very well be in alternative universe whith different minerals than our own.

Still with the alternate-universe thing? I honestly can't see why it has to be that way - we have plenty of asteroids in our own universe already. Just because they're represented with circles in the game doesn't mean that they're circles in real life :) Plus, it was a scientist in this universe that proposed the idea, and an author in this universe who proposed the technology.


This is not about who is right or wrong, but which one would be more interesting to play. You are forgetting that this is all in context of a game. I say that playing as a tribe vs tribe will be more interesting that playing as you suggested. The platfrom is ready and it introduces huge ammount of possibilities to expand the gameplay in the future, like hero dysons, rogue trees, friendly tribes, neutral spicies, food chain and so on.


PS: please split your posts, its getting harder to answer them if you put all the stuff in one post.

totally

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Re: Von Neumann machines, and oxygen
« Reply #48 on: March 30, 2009, 06:00:17 AM »
Also the implementation of competition inside dyson species was just a thought, it would require 10 times more programming than is implemented now. Just an interesting concept for a gameplay, nothing more.

The advantages of an organic gameplay scenario are obvious (thoughts for future versions):

--scenario based on a plot
--alliances and friendly tribes

more threats and weapons:
--hero dysons
--different species (parasite insects that attack trees and drink sap...)
--natural and weaponized diseases
--more specialized trees


These are just ideas, after all, devs decide what they are going to do next ;) I just think that organic scenario leaves more room for future development and expansion.

wogan

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Re: Von Neumann machines, and oxygen
« Reply #49 on: March 30, 2009, 07:06:19 PM »
I'll give you an example about competition inside spicies: there is one attractive girl, and you and I go after her. To deny that this kind of competition doesn't make the spices stronger is kinda naive (and I'll get the girl ;) [...] And, yes, bigger bombs make you stronger, there is no way around it.

I wouldn't "go after" any girl, because I understand how my actions might create a negative influence that would end up doing more harm than good. Call me naive if it makes you feel more comfortable :)

The US has the biggest bombs. They also have the most failed economy in the world. Are you sure you want to stick with your view on this?

Hm, who said that evolution is about survival of the strongest? "The strong survive by getting rid of the weak"? No, the strong survive by controling the weak. Major difference. Wolves don't get rid of all the rabbits. They simply eat them. Why? Because they can. The wolf has more control over the rabbit, than a rabbit has over wolf.

When you eat a rabbit, it dies. Believe it or not. Maybe in your universe, they're immortal zombie ghosts that can recreate their bodies from sunlight and Chemical X, but in the real world, things die when eaten. The only system of "control" in nature is aggressive dominance - and competing species are killed off. EG: The dodo bird.

This is not about who is right or wrong, but which one would be more interesting to play.

I know - I never said that having any of this in our universe would be better, but it would certainly break the cliche that the interesting stuff happens in alternate universes and alien races. Any wonder Darwinia's been such a hit?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 07:46:05 PM by Wogan »

Candlejack

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Re: Von Neumann machines, and oxygen
« Reply #50 on: March 30, 2009, 11:05:56 PM »
All Dyson seedlings on one team are genetically the same. The trees they grew from use resources from the asteroid in the most efficient way possible, which causes them to be physically different.

totally

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Re: Von Neumann machines, and oxygen
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2009, 02:19:31 AM »
Quote from: Wogan
I wouldn't "go after" any girl, because I understand how my actions might create a negative influence that would end up doing more harm than good. Call me naive if it makes you feel more comfortable :)
Well, good luck with that mindset.

Quote from: Wogan
The US has the biggest bombs. They also have the most failed economy in the world. Are you sure you want to stick with your view on this?
Yes, because things you mentioned are not connected. US isn't one homogeneous group with similar interests. I'll just leave it that way.


Quote from: Wogan
When you eat a rabbit, it dies. Believe it or not. Maybe in your universe, they're immortal zombie ghosts that can recreate their bodies from sunlight and Chemical X, but in the real world, things die when eaten. The only system of "control" in nature is aggressive dominance - and competing species are killed off. EG: The dodo bird.
By that logic all the things I eat would be extinct by now. Predator and a prey don't really compete, predator simply eats the prey (there was really no competition between the chicken I just ate and me). Now different tribes (packs/groups) of predators do compete with each other. So your example is way off base.


Quote from: Wogan
I know - I never said that having any of this in our universe would be better, but it would certainly break the cliche that the interesting stuff happens in alternate universes and alien races. Any wonder Darwinia's been such a hit?
The topic here is not about this universe vs alternative but about the ways the game could be made better. In other words how different elements of gameplay could be added seamlessly into game universe at later stages of development. So a dev guys could read this and say, hey I like this idea, let's incorporate that into the game, and it would be congruent with everything else.

(Yeah, I know that there is no guarantee that things mentioned here would end up in the final game, it is just fun experimenting with different ideas  ;D )


wogan

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Re: Von Neumann machines, and oxygen
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2009, 09:09:58 AM »
All Dyson seedlings on one team are genetically the same. The trees they grew from use resources from the asteroid in the most efficient way possible, which causes them to be physically different.

Yup. I've been trying to tell them that for 4 pages now :(

wogan

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Re: Von Neumann machines, and oxygen
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2009, 09:13:52 AM »
Now different tribes (packs/groups) of predators do compete with each other. So your example is way off base.

Did you even read what I wrote? I agreed with you on the point that there is inter-tribal competition. Just no inner-tribal competition.

The topic here is not about this universe vs alternative but about the ways the game could be made better.

Did you even read what I wrote? I reiterated the point that the this-universe idea breaks a cliche, but it is by no means "better" than an alternate-universe setting.

totally

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Re: Von Neumann machines, and oxygen
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2009, 11:57:19 AM »
I agreed with you on the point that there is inter-tribal competition. Just no inner-tribal competition.

Whoa. I just found one who doesn't know about inner tribal competition. Tribal leader is the only one who passes he's genes in a tribe to the next generation (say a lion pack for example or a gorilla tribe). Tribal leader is the only one who is able to mate and he is the one who shares food and so on, and that position is extremelly advantages. A lion sometimes kills his opponents kids if there is a major shift in power realtions. Dyson tribe may look like an ant colony but every seedling is able to become a tree and pass genes to the next generation. So? Every seedling thus wants to become a tree and if that requires killing the tree... you get the idea.

(But there is no way to implement this currently because it would require 10 times more programming and UI features. I am yet to find a game that does that properly. Imagine an SCV from Starcraft wanting to become a starfleet commander, and a game design that allows this.)

Quote from: Wogan May
I reiterated the point that the this-universe idea breaks a cliche, but it is by no means "better" than an alternate-universe setting.

It's all about game feature and long term goals for development and whether they are congruent with the rest of the story. Breaking of cliche would be a game that would fully implement a complex inner and outer tribal realtions even on a small scale. I referred to the tools vs organic discussion.

Candlejack

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Re: Von Neumann machines, and oxygen
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2009, 09:05:43 PM »
Seedlings are like computers and trees are like super computers. A tree needs the processing power of 15 seedlings in order to run. I assume it gets the "program" used to operate from another tree through some sort of wireless transmission.

wogan

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Re: Von Neumann machines, and oxygen
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2009, 10:03:27 PM »
... you get the idea.

I do, actually - you're trying to superimpose an earthly tribal system on what you call an alien race from an alternate universe. I somehow doubt they'd behave a single bit like us.

I assume it gets the "program" used to operate from another tree through some sort of wireless transmission.

Or just from latent memory within the seedling itself. I mentioned distributed information somewhere in this thread - same idea. However, wireless linkage would be handy for co-ordination, etc...

totally

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Re: Von Neumann machines, and oxygen
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2009, 03:27:23 PM »
I do, actually - you're trying to superimpose an earthly tribal system on what you call an alien race from an alternate universe. I somehow doubt they'd behave a single bit like us.

If they wouldn't behave like us, then the game would be extremelly boring. Again, this is all in a context of a game and players experience. (And it is pretty hard for me to imagine a life form or life cycle that is not based on some sort of control or a fight.)

If you think of dysons as tools like computers, it cuts off implementation into the game design of such wonderful inter-species interactions as amensalism, commensalism, inquilinism, mutualism, predation, parasitism and symbiosis. (Example usage: predation - organisms that are higher in a food chain than dysons, spawned randomly in the beginning of the game, attack and eat lonely dysons, flee when attacked in large groups and so on.) Defence seedlings would the type of seedlings that specialize in autothysis (suicidal altruism) etc etc. And the best part is that if you implement these into any game in any order, they will be mutually congruent with ech other.

Simply put, the more game play mimics real world the more exciting for a player that is.

So anybody has more ideas how to bring more depth to the game play?

wogan

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Re: Von Neumann machines, and oxygen
« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2009, 07:50:26 PM »
Simply put, the more game play mimics real world the more exciting for a player that is.

Really? Ok, pick any FPS game. Then pick three more. Heck, think of them all - if you can play one, you can play the genre. Same goes for TBS, RTS, any genre you care to mention.

Just about every new game that's released follows "real-world" guidelines (like NFS, for instance. Or CS:S). And every one of them is same crap, different wrapper. Even those like Warcraft or Starcraft follow mostly-set rules in the RTS and RPG genres, and guess what? If you can play War I, you can play Wars II-III+ any expansion they release in the future.

Plus one for playability, minus one for originality. Which is why Uplink was such a hit - as was DEFCON, and Darwinia. Because they flipped everything we thought we know about gaming on its head, and introduced something completely new.

Try them out, if you haven't already, and you'll see what I mean:

http://www.introversion.co.uk/defcon/
http://www.introversion.co.uk/darwinia/

If Dyson turns into yet another RTS with the same RBA pattern, following everything we know about RTS/RPG games thus far, it'll really lose the edge of originality it has right now. And that would suck.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 07:58:14 PM by Wogan »

SnukJam

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Re: Von Neumann machines, and oxygen
« Reply #59 on: April 03, 2009, 06:42:32 PM »
:o This is rare, due to their usual caustic nature ... but I actually agree with Wogan's last message. :o

Dyson has potential ... let's keep pointing in new and uncharted directions. :)