Author Topic: Future  (Read 7911 times)

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Alex

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Future
« on: August 03, 2011, 02:54:05 PM »
Hello everyone

So, so sorry for all the radio silence. I'm back on it now. As Rudolf posted in another thread, we've been approved for the USA on PSN, and are this >|< close to the EU one too. Now is the time to look to the future.

What we want to do is release the new version on PC and Mac and Linux. That'll take some time as we have to rewrite the interface to support mice.

The main problem with this though is modding and compatibility. The game has more features and is nicer and more polished than the current version, but it is less moddable by default because C# has a really good reflection system that really helps the Lua stuff. In C++ we have to do it all by hand and so the functionality for Lua has been reduced only to that which we needed to make the game work. Also the change of language has meant that many parts of Lua levels have to be changed syntax-wise (not a problem but it means that levels won't work out of the box as it were). Many of the user-made levels won't work even after this due to the lack of support for Lua commands.

Obviously this isn't a good thing as I don't want to blow up this community and lose what's been built over all this time. So in order to preserve that, and make it so I don't have to spend the rest of my days adding mod features for the game as they turn up, I am thinking of taking the existing C# version, stripping out the music and levels, and leaving it as a free download version that can only run user-made levels. I am additionally considering opening the source to the game, although that is quite a scary thought esp. for Linux.

Anyway I wondered what you guys think as this is all heavily based on speculation and it would be great to get some real opinions.

Aino

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Re: Future
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2011, 03:04:34 PM »
Open Source would be great for me, cause I wanna see how to build your own game in C# >.<

But it all sounds great, we can still play the maps we've made and play the new one :D

Alex

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Re: Future
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2011, 03:07:26 PM »
The Wuwei framework that the game's based on might not be opened, it depends on other people.

annikk.exe

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Re: Future
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2011, 03:44:24 PM »
Hi Alex, congratulations on the approval :>  I'm surprised you're not taking a holiday now!

With regard to custom levels.  I have always suspected that custom levels would not work with the new version.

My feeling is that for our work to be worth anything at all, you have to be able to play the levels in the main game - the one that everyone will be buying.  If custom levels only work with an "enthusiast" version of Eufloria it will mean our levels get downloaded less.

I would ideally like to have as big an audience as possible for levels.  So I would personally prefer if it was still possible to write levels for the main game.  Even if the number of commands we can use is severely limited, I'd still prefer it I think, especially if you will eventually add some of the most powerful commands to the new version.

At the end of the day, the community has taught itself how to program in Lua.  If we are given a new/different set of tools, even though there are less tools than previously, we'll figure it out and make awesome stuff.  :>  That way we are also generating more content for the actual game, adding value to it..

So yes.  I'd rather work with the new version and all its shortcomings, if that's possible... :>

./textwall

annikk.exe

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Re: Future
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2011, 05:53:52 PM »
Ok, actually... I have a few questions about modding in the new version...

Will it be possible to make custom levels in the new version?  (however basic they may be)
Will levels still be written in lua?
Can you give some examples of commands that are unlikely to be supported?  Will DrawSprite still work?  What about Asteroid:MoveTo and MoveBy?
Though you did say you don't want to spend the rest of your days adding modding features, do you have any plans to eventually add commands that level designers can use?  Or is that it - what comes in the final release is all we'll ever have?


Just to reiterate that I want to make levels for the latest version of Eufloria, pretty much regardless of any restrictions.  The open source idea sounds cool but I am mainly interested in making levels for the version of the game that will be played by thousands of people.  :>

Alex

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Re: Future
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2011, 06:17:32 PM »
Ok, actually... I have a few questions about modding in the new version...

Will it be possible to make custom levels in the new version?  (however basic they may be)
Will levels still be written in lua?
Can you give some examples of commands that are unlikely to be supported?  Will DrawSprite still work?  What about Asteroid:MoveTo and MoveBy?
Though you did say you don't want to spend the rest of your days adding modding features, do you have any plans to eventually add commands that level designers can use?  Or is that it - what comes in the final release is all we'll ever have?


Just to reiterate that I want to make levels for the latest version of Eufloria, pretty much regardless of any restrictions.  The open source idea sounds cool but I am mainly interested in making levels for the version of the game that will be played by thousands of people.  :>


> Will it be possible to make custom levels in the new version?  (however basic they may be)
Yes.
> Will levels still be written in lua?
Yep.
> Can you give some examples of commands that are unlikely to be supported?  Will DrawSprite still work?  What about Asteroid:MoveTo and MoveBy?
Currently anything that's in the basic campaign works. Pretty much everything else is unsupported. Whether or not things end up being supported is up for discussion as it will take time to do that (bear in mind that it would also take some time to clean up, strip down and release Eufloria Classic or whatever it would end up being called).
> Though you did say you don't want to spend the rest of your days adding modding features, do you have any plans to eventually add commands that level designers can use?  Or is that it - what comes in the final release is all we'll ever have?
No, the game will doubtless need patch after bloody patch to support people who have esoteric or even common hardware configurations and fix bugs. Extra features could get worked into these patches. I am happy to come back and add features, but I don't want to be doing it to the point where I'm, say, spending a day a week on it. I wanted to get the game roughly to the point where all existing levels would run (if not by simply loading them, then by modifying the syntax appropriately).

My thinking was that there's a lot of stuff people want to do that I'd never have time to do. And if the game were modifiable in a more open sense (i.e. source code available) then people could do that independently of me. Additionally there's an existing version of the game in which all these levels currently work.

I totally see your point about working in the current version and actually I think that's a really important issue both for you guys and for us. In the long term it will probably be better to have a reasonably modifiable version out and ditch the idea of the free classic version.

Pilchard123

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Re: Future
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2011, 06:41:26 PM »
How about keeping the moddable version as a free download (possibly only for those that have bought the game), until either a set time runs out or you have copied all/most of the Lua commands to the new one.

Y'know, I'm fairly sure that we'd write the bindings if you gave us a rough guide to how to do them - I'm almost certain that I would. This community has plenty of people with too much time on their hands a love for this game and who would be willing to help.

annikk.exe

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Re: Future
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2011, 07:08:16 PM »
Quote
> Will it be possible to make custom levels in the new version?  (however basic they may be)
Yes.
> Will levels still be written in lua?
Yep.

w00t !


Quote
> Can you give some examples of commands that are unlikely to be supported?  Will DrawSprite still work?  What about Asteroid:MoveTo and MoveBy?
Currently anything that's in the basic campaign works. Pretty much everything else is unsupported. Whether or not things end up being supported is up for discussion as it will take time to do that (bear in mind that it would also take some time to clean up, strip down and release Eufloria Classic or whatever it would end up being called).

I'm totally stoked that you're up for discussing what gets implemented.  :> I am of course eager to get started!  When/where should this discussion take place?  Would it be helpful if we level designers create a prioritised list of things we most want implemented, so that you can see easily what people are trying to do?  Is there anything else we can do to help?

Though I shall greatly look forward to the patches, I will also begin creating content the moment the new version is released.  I will aim to have a new level out the same day the new version of the game is released on PC.  :>


Quote
> Though you did say you don't want to spend the rest of your days adding modding features, do you have any plans to eventually add commands that level designers can use?  Or is that it - what comes in the final release is all we'll ever have?
No, the game will doubtless need patch after bloody patch to support people who have esoteric or even common hardware configurations and fix bugs. Extra features could get worked into these patches. I am happy to come back and add features, but I don't want to be doing it to the point where I'm, say, spending a day a week on it. I wanted to get the game roughly to the point where all existing levels would run (if not by simply loading them, then by modifying the syntax appropriately).

I am totally fine with modifying old levels and engines to fit whatever the new syntax is.  :>  When you say you want to get to the point where all existing levels would run, do you mean all the existing levels that have been created by the level designers, or the levels for the original game?

Quote
My thinking was that there's a lot of stuff people want to do that I'd never have time to do. And if the game were modifiable in a more open sense (i.e. source code available) then people could do that independently of me. Additionally there's an existing version of the game in which all these levels currently work.

The thing is, that would involve splitting your time between two Eufloria projects instead of just focusing on one.  Sure, there are restrictions with what we can do, and it might be possible to change those things if it were open source.... but who would change the code?  Who would play the resulting maps?   I guess I'm just skeptical about how much an open source version would be advertised, downloaded, and played.  It's not as exciting an arena to work in if it's not actively being played by thousands of people all over the world..
For me, coding is only half the pleasure... the other half is seeing the download counter tick up, and reading the feedback from people who have played it.  People are much more likely to play the latest and greatest version, so that is where I want to be.  :>

Besides, there really haven't been that many requests for new commands.  Some of the previous requests are no longer relevant because we have found workarounds for them, or discovered undocumented commands that have the functionality we were looking for.  Personally, when I ask about the existence (or not) of a particular command, I am just asking because I am curious if it exists... it's not intended to be read as "implement this command for me!".  The only unfulfilled request I can remember is for the ability to draw sprites behind asteroids as well as in front of them, but that's hardly a huge issue because there is a workaround for it (albeit an inefficient one).


Quote
I totally see your point about working in the current version and actually I think that's a really important issue both for you guys and for us. In the long term it will probably be better to have a reasonably modifiable version out and ditch the idea of the free classic version.

I hope you decide to do this.. :>  I think it's the best option for us Level Designers, for you guys, and for the people that play the game.  I love the look of the new version, it's totally stunning and I can't wait to play it.  :>  heh, I'm totally bubbling over with enthusiasm right now... though I'm conscious of not wanting to crowd you after your epic coding session over these past months.

Pilchard123

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Re: Future
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2011, 07:23:40 PM »
This looks like a fairly good binding thing, and it seems fairly simple to implement, too. It also looks a lot easier to use than the stuff you posted a while back.

http://code.google.com/p/slb/


http://code.google.com/p/slb/source/browse/SLB_101.wiki?repo=wiki
http://code.google.com/p/slb/source/browse/examples/

EDIT: I don't think the levels would need rewriting after all.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 07:31:59 PM by Pilchard123 »

Aino

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Re: Future
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2011, 07:27:09 PM »
I hope it's not hard to add features D:

If it is, it must be like slavery for you, unless you wanna add it yourself :P

Maybe we can make a list over functions that won't be able to be used, so we see what we loses, and probably it can be added one by one later(Alex told that mostly the things in  the campaign will work, but is the campaign exactly the same + some features?) :)
(or is that idea just dumb?)

Alex

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Re: Future
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2011, 08:43:06 PM »
Pilchard123: we are using LuaBind which (like all binding libs) requires you to specify the functions you want to expose to Lua (i.e. you can't just give it the assembly and say "go crazy"). Adding bindings is a matter of changing some headers and recompiling the game and doing a release, so it's not something that can be done by players. That's the problem.

Quote
> Can you give some examples of commands that are unlikely to be supported?  Will DrawSprite still work?  What about Asteroid:MoveTo and MoveBy?
Currently anything that's in the basic campaign works. Pretty much everything else is unsupported. Whether or not things end up being supported is up for discussion as it will take time to do that (bear in mind that it would also take some time to clean up, strip down and release Eufloria Classic or whatever it would end up being called).

I'm totally stoked that you're up for discussing what gets implemented.  :> I am of course eager to get started!  When/where should this discussion take place?  Would it be helpful if we level designers create a prioritised list of things we most want implemented, so that you can see easily what people are trying to do?  Is there anything else we can do to help?

Though I shall greatly look forward to the patches, I will also begin creating content the moment the new version is released.  I will aim to have a new level out the same day the new version of the game is released on PC.  :>
We can start discussing it here, but what I meant was that as of this moment there is nothing supported beyond the absolute basics of placing asteroids and seedlings and trees, and adding support for the rest will take time - very little time in some cases but maybe a lot in others. Therefore a list of what's needed kind of exists in the existing set of user-made levels. Once all of that is working it would be time to look at new stuff.

Quote
> Though you did say you don't want to spend the rest of your days adding modding features, do you have any plans to eventually add commands that level designers can use?  Or is that it - what comes in the final release is all we'll ever have?
No, the game will doubtless need patch after bloody patch to support people who have esoteric or even common hardware configurations and fix bugs. Extra features could get worked into these patches. I am happy to come back and add features, but I don't want to be doing it to the point where I'm, say, spending a day a week on it. I wanted to get the game roughly to the point where all existing levels would run (if not by simply loading them, then by modifying the syntax appropriately).

I am totally fine with modifying old levels and engines to fit whatever the new syntax is.  :>  When you say you want to get to the point where all existing levels would run, do you mean all the existing levels that have been created by the level designers, or the levels for the original game?

Most of the editing required amounts to several find and replace passes. I want to get it so that most of the user levels in existence today work to some degree. Probably some of your own more esoteric creations would have trouble but by and large I want stuff to be working.

Quote
My thinking was that there's a lot of stuff people want to do that I'd never have time to do. And if the game were modifiable in a more open sense (i.e. source code available) then people could do that independently of me. Additionally there's an existing version of the game in which all these levels currently work.

The thing is, that would involve splitting your time between two Eufloria projects instead of just focusing on one.  Sure, there are restrictions with what we can do, and it might be possible to change those things if it were open source.... but who would change the code?  Who would play the resulting maps?   I guess I'm just skeptical about how much an open source version would be advertised, downloaded, and played.  It's not as exciting an arena to work in if it's not actively being played by thousands of people all over the world..
For me, coding is only half the pleasure... the other half is seeing the download counter tick up, and reading the feedback from people who have played it.  People are much more likely to play the latest and greatest version, so that is where I want to be.  :>

Besides, there really haven't been that many requests for new commands.  Some of the previous requests are no longer relevant because we have found workarounds for them, or discovered undocumented commands that have the functionality we were looking for.  Personally, when I ask about the existence (or not) of a particular command, I am just asking because I am curious if it exists... it's not intended to be read as "implement this command for me!".  The only unfulfilled request I can remember is for the ability to draw sprites behind asteroids as well as in front of them, but that's hardly a huge issue because there is a workaround for it (albeit an inefficient one).
All fine

Quote
I totally see your point about working in the current version and actually I think that's a really important issue both for you guys and for us. In the long term it will probably be better to have a reasonably modifiable version out and ditch the idea of the free classic version.

I hope you decide to do this.. :>  I think it's the best option for us Level Designers, for you guys, and for the people that play the game.  I love the look of the new version, it's totally stunning and I can't wait to play it.  :>  heh, I'm totally bubbling over with enthusiasm right now... though I'm conscious of not wanting to crowd you after your epic coding session over these past months.
Thanks. It's been a long year but it's been worth it so far :)

Pilchard123

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Re: Future
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2011, 08:59:49 PM »
I realise that the source would need to be compiled, I just thought that if you were to supply a list of some sort - what functions are called, what parameters they take, etc - we could work on producing some of the raw source, which you could then copy over and compile without having to write it yourself. Yes, there may be some tweaking nneded, but it could cut your workload some.

Aino

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Re: Future
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2011, 09:17:58 PM »
I wonder if the custom AIs work in the new version...

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Re: Future
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2011, 09:20:42 PM »
I doubt it, Alex pretty much said they wouldn't. Not for a time, at least.

Aino

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Re: Future
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2011, 09:23:12 PM »
But the AI's contain(atleast mine) the stuff that is in the Campaign :D

So i guess it'll work o.O


Was wrong, i don't think Position.x/y comes with the update D:

Nor will GraceTimer I guess :S